wow, the local website for the hoboken community has given me the best reason to leave this town. see kid radical's comment here which already has caused quite a stir. below is the post and photo from the site. we hope our loyal readers will join this discussion. where is the compassion? concern for others? have those who posted comments that want to "clean up the streets" ever talked with a homeless person? do you know their stories, their lives or their names? do you think they choose to struggle with mental illness, addiction or poverty? if you see a growing "problem" that affects you and "the value of your home", what are you doing about it? do you volunteer at the shelter, donate to a non-profit organization that helps the homeless or serve your community? myself and others who contribute to this blog try to address that question every day in our work, our daily routines and interaction with others. i'm glad these posts inspire heated debate and hope that we can do more than just insult each other's blogs.there is a very real face to homelessness. look at it.
--A reader chimes in about his feelings about the state of homelessness in Hoboken. He thinks it’s getting worse. We have a great shelter, but is the situation really falling apart?
“Dear Hoboken 411,
What is up with the increase in the number of homeless people in Hoboken? Its feels like they are growing in number. I see the same homeless people walking Washington Street everyday. I don’t think they are dangerous but at the same time I am sure they make us hardworking residents uncomfortable, to say the least. (As well as decrease the value of our homes). And where do they come from? What is so appealing about Hoboken to the homeless? Is this a growing problem in our town? Is there anyway to help alleviate it? Something has to be done in my opinion. This town is better than what I am seeing. Obviously Hoboken has made great strides over the past 10 - 15 years, but why can’t we clean up the streets?
-Anonymous”--
31 comments:
Hoboken 411 is a racist, classist site that should have no readers, but sadly has lots...it is sad really.
Unbelievable. They have stooped to a new level. I am actually shaken by the comments over there. Really shaken. It says a lot about the people in our town and the people that are our neighbors.
Maybe it is time to leave.
Some of the posters on Hoboken411 are racist and classists. I do not think the site is. I do not think the operator is. The site has many readers because the operator does not censor his posters.
But, I don't think just anyone can post? I have submitted something and it has not posted on the site...if it is actually on the blog...then it seems it is the responsibility of the blog operator?
No? Explain it to me if I misunderstand.
to be clear. What do you mean you have submitted something and it didn't post. Did you send something to an email address and ask it to be posted?
I submitted it to the person (not sure who he is) regarding the hoboken democratic committee and said I would do so. But, he never posted it. I thought presumably because it was my take or my opinion.
that is why I say if the person who operates the blog usually has say over the content. Maybe not, but the way we run this blog is through us. If someone posts something we didn't like, we can take it off.
This is also not the first time either. There seems to be a feeling that poor people should not exist in Hoboken. Several posts have indicated this. Usually, it is anonymous, granted. But, they post.
1. Not racist, just have the ability to talk about anything, and more importantly, listen to anyone. Creating conversation, y'know?
2. No matter where you go (unless it's some gated community of over-zealous maniacs that think the same way you do), you will have people that have differing views and opinions. Which ones are "right" and which ones are "wrong"?
Yours, then everyone elses?
3. I try to publish 95% of the items readers send me. However, running a site like 411 is NOT easy, and yes, I may not even GET to them all. Do you know how many emails I get a week?
Send me an email (it's on the site) and tell me when you sent the message and what the subject line was. I'll look it up and see when I got it. I save them ALL.
Especially with recent Hoboken politics, it was HARD to even keep up. I have a life, you know.
If you really cannot tolerate the diversity around here, then what areas of America (or the world for that matter) are better? Any suggestions?
Maybe somewhere without internet access might be suitable?
First, I don't care if you publish my comment. But...it was just after the election in Hoboken. I wrote you and told you I was elected to the Democratic committee and was attending an organizing meeting that night and would write to you (which you responded to the 1st email) and tell you what happened which I did - maybe a day later.
I know it is not easy to manage the type of blog you do, but...placing anonymous viewer mail that berates homeless people is not as you say: "creating conversation."
It is blatantly classist if not racist. As far as diversity of comment, MY comments on your blog were dissenting views so maybe YOU cannot tolerate the diversity, nor your readers.
And maybe it is YOU who needs to move to either a gated community or the suburbs as someone insinuated. This is urban life and the toleration of the homeless, the poor and "other distractions" is part of the experience.
I am not blind to the fact that safety issues are abound and are on everyone's mind, but there are ways to frame the issue.
You have people on your site making references to Hitler and the lethal injection of the homeless...just where does the line cross for you?
I disagree. You do not have to be "tolerant" of anything. Would be tolerant if you got assaulted? Robbed? etc?
It is my opinion that you're way too narrow-minded to understand what I do. What you're seeing by the allowance of free-speech, is a true representation of what people are feeling, thinking, and writing. It's not my job to "curtail" their words. Let them say what they want (unless it's specifcally defamatory or libelous to certain person.. you know the drill).
I'm not attacking you or anyone else, but I'd reckon you're a bit too passionate about things you can't control.
As far as racist Hitler comments or lethal injection.. man, they're just words. You should be strong enough to see that and form your own opinion of said commenter, not the person who allows it on. Heck, I don't even have time to read all the comments!
I laughed when I read "maybe YOU cannot tolerate the diversity".. are you kidding me?
And as far as your letter about the democratic whatever... I cover Hoboken. My main goal was to cover the Council Elections. Everything else (HCDO, Hudson County) was optional and when I had the time. Some stuff made it, others didn't. Those are the sacrifices I made. I cannot publish each and every item, or I'd never sleep. 4,000 emails a week, it gets hard to manage.. all while wearing all the hats on my self-managed website. To think that I selectively determine what gets published based on my "views" is inaccurate. It's just my lack of time and resources.
Anyway, I'd gladly take some help over here. You want to submit an article for publication on my site? Send it to me, and you'll get some good traffic like you got today alone.. I think 50+ people came to your site...
First, I think what you have done and are doing with your blog is extraordinarily unique for our community and quite frankly the blogosphere, but...there is always a but...
you know well there is no free speech...we do not have that in America despite what any idealist or propagandist told us growing up. You can't yell fire in a building - it is prosecutable...is that a word?
As to the Hitler comments, they might be bordering on a terroristic threat...imagine someone gets up at a city council meeting and says something of that sort. What would happen to him or her? Certainly disdain if not something else.
Lastly, and I think for you most importantly, sponsorship which I see you have a lot of on your site goes with the flow of what their consumers may find objectionable. As to Don Imus...and his comments, certainly free speech, but also objectionable.
And I am not sure you follow the lefty blogs, but I do and there is an attempt to show Bill O'Reilly and Fox what hypocrites they are and bloggers are writing to sponsors highlighting the "hatemongering" on Bill O's show...already Home Depot and Lowe's pulled their sponsorship because of the outcry has been so large.
Do you think all the sponsors on your site would be ok with that content?
Hey, let 411 continue to be a site for local racists and general douchebags who compensate for their lack of balls in the real world by shooting off their mouths behind an anonymous pseudonym.
We can only hope that someone else will pick up the concept and develop a site where people can have an intelligent conversation without the New KKK jumping in every time.
411 used to be a good site but lately it's basically useless, and who wants to wade through the racial epithets, classist whining, and personal insults on the chance there's something informative there? Of course, 411 likes to remind his readers how "influential" he is, so one must wonder whose agenda he is seeking to further by pandering to these people...
There are a number of jerks on 411. I debate their trash talk. I know they are trolls, just looking for a reaction, but I personally refuse to let their voice be the only one heard.
While I hate what they say, I defend their right to say it, and my right to say they are ignorant, racist, jerks.
Regardless of what you might feel about wither or not we have true speech, or freedom of religion or any of the other rights detailed int the Bill of Rights, is not my point.
My point is this, freedom is freedom for all or freedom for none. I will defend your right to voice your opinion, and I will defend the rights of the jerks, too.
taith aka journey etc.
Thanks for the reply and the comment again.
And it is fine. I respect your right and their right. I hope you respect our right here to dub them assclowns. Those who would say what has been said (not all of them, but a lot of them) should be ashamed.
There is a right of course to say anything we want, that is America. But, it is our right as a people and as a society to not condone the behavior and for an outcry to occur.
It is not hate that is demeaning our society or allows someone like George Bush to reign and do whatever he chooses it is us, the society who allows it without condemnation.
You can say anything you want about Hoboken411. I will say what I feel. By calling every user of the site an assclown. You are calling me one. Nice, great way to build bridges.
Broad stroke generalizations never helped anything. It is part of the problem of the "us" vs. "them". Rather than seeing people as an individual.
Which makes you really no better than the people you belittle.
God I love H411!
To all you other douches: It's nice that we have the right to call someone "racist" or "jerk" when we don't like what they say. Not that it's not true, we just don't like it.
I think it is clear in the post that I am calling the people who said hateful remarks the assclown.
You are quibbling with semantics. If that is not understood I apologize.
I thought Hoboken 411 and I had a decent honest discussion on the matter. But, that does not mean I am not disgusted by most of the behavior.
It is also personal for me by the way. This is the life I chose to live, to work with the homeless, the underserved, the needy who also many of my family and other friends fit that category.
What I am I to do? Just allow hateful spewing comments? This to me has always been the problem with the left and the democrats. We allow these comments without ordering a retraction.
I stand by what I have said fully. But, to be clear I was calling assclowns the people who wish (as the post said) to live a life free of the homeless, and get rid of the distraction. Simply and completely objectionable.
And it only got worse from there. Assclowns.
Anonymous said...
Hey, let 411 continue to be a site for local racists and general douchebags who compensate for their lack of balls in the real world by shooting off their mouths behind an anonymous pseudonym.
I heart Irony. :)
Oh boy, here they come. Whatsamatter, did Perry run out of "OMG I bought a condo in Hoboken and there are BLACK PEOPLE in my neighborhood!" letters to post for you people?
"What I am I to do? Just allow hateful spewing comments? This to me has always been the problem with the left and the democrats. We allow these comments without ordering a retraction."
Tell you what - how about you set an example and not use hateful language yourself? Last time I checked, "assclowns" wasn't something you called a group of people you don't know without some sort of grievance - even hatred - of them.
"We allow these comments without ordering a retraction."
Ordering a retraction? It's people exercising their freedom of speech. Sure, you can disagree with what they say and you can even fire back with fiery language of your own, but 'ordering a retraction' smacks of censorship. Surely you're not in favor of censorship, being such an advocate of progressive thought?
I disagree vehemitly with many posters on H411 and often tell them so.
But I'll take those morons over brittle people who perceive diversity to be the mirroring of their own opinion any day of the week.
BTW what do you think of the people on our town council?
First, this is not an argument about free speech. The government is not restricting anyone's speech and kid radical is not asking that anyone's speech be restricted by the government. Congratulations, everyone's first amendment rights remain unaltered. Note that speech is not unfettered and as kid radical points out, society through govt has found it reasonable to restrict speech. Before anyone flies off the handle, the preceding sentence is not an endorsement of these restrictions, just a statement that they do in fact exist.
Second, tolerating difference of opinion and tolerating hate are not the same things. A premise of freedom is that while we respect a legal right to express unpopular, even hateful, views, as a matter of human rights, we should not tolerate, legitimate, condone or otherwise allow hate to live unchallenged.
Third, there is no third.
r. thel,
You are right. The government is don't behind the calls for censorship.
But like many forms of censorship, from what is said in blog, to a mother pissed off that children are reading Harry Potter, I detest it.
I will not be silenced by the government or a bunch of pushy strangers.
Oh and the hate does not go unchallenged.
Hate goes unchallenged if your response is "oh, please don't do that anymore." hehehe.
And one thing is bothering me and has throughout. What was said in the comments section would never be said in every day society. Never. Not the original post. The comments. Why is it ok to be anonymous on a computer screen and say such things?
It is cowardly. No one is talking about limiting free speech for the final time. We are talking about a civilized people condemning remarks that are offensive.
People can say them all they want, but watch for the backlash.
"Why is it ok to be anonymous on a computer screen and say such things?
It is cowardly."
Is that why you post under the alias 'kid radical'? Because you're cowardly?
So the only way to challenge hate is with a gag? How enlightened.
ok taith journey I have tried to be patient with you. You keep placing blame where there is none. My example is this:
If you were standing in a circle of people and someone said they thought to deal with the homeless problem they should lethal inject them the way the Nazis did. And he/she was serious. Because there is no way to know if someone is serious on the internet, once it is there it is out there.
I, in my own passion for such issues would tell the person they were an idiot, not seek to censor, not indicate the person has no right to say such things, but to condemn the act. Just as I hope every person with good will would do the same.
Because if we allow hate to go unchallenged then we allow it to stand. Not censorship - for the last time. Just common decency.
"To me, however what is disgusting about this post is that it ended up on this blog at all. Who runs this blog that they would put such an insensitive letter on their blog? You can’t control comments, but actually on the blog? You should be ashamed of yourself. Go to www.thesubversivegarden.blogspot.com for a response and a real hoboken blog that cares about humans and society, not one that is only concerned about the latest nail shop that opens up…"
So you don't support censorship, but you have not qualms telling someone else how to run their blog. It might not be technical censorship. Well enough of fighting over semantics. I hate the lethal injection, tear down the projects comments, and I have said so enough times on hoboken411 that I don't have to prove how I feel about that. Run your blog and let other run theirs.
It is called debate. So, are you saying people cannot agree? Am I really the one engaging in censorship? Or is it you? It sounds like you don't want me "criticizing."
I think you just ended the debate.
http://blog.nj.com/hobokennow/2007/08/blogging_hoboken_thursday_aug.html
news of the debate spread to nj.com's blog...
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